Comments for rants.org http://www.rants.org Thoughts, musings, and rants by Karl Fogel Sat, 06 Feb 2010 03:09:09 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0-alpha hourly 1 Comment on Bug Growth is Proportional to User Growth, and Bugs are not Technical Debt. by KeithCu http://www.rants.org/2010/01/10/bugs-users-and-tech-debt/comment-page-1/#comment-85753 KeithCu Sat, 06 Feb 2010 03:09:09 +0000 http://www.rants.org/?p=355#comment-85753 Karl, Triage is the normal state of affairs, I agree. Especially in a codebase adding code. There is a curve that levels off where adding more users doesn't appreciably increase the surface area used. If I selected 1,000 random people around the world and looked at all their bugs, it would cover the vast majority of the bugs in the Ubuntu bug database. In any case, Ubuntu is filled with bad bugs, so any theoretical analysis doesn't matter. They might not be able to hit zero bugs, but they can make up many other good goals. I was suggesting zero bugs not also linked up to the upstream buglist. There are many interesting goals that Ubuntu could set over time. If I could change one thing about the free software culture, it would be to push more for them to think about crashes the way airplanes designers do. When you have 100 million lines of code, you need to push for high quality or it will fall over constantly. Karl,

Triage is the normal state of affairs, I agree. Especially in a codebase adding code.

There is a curve that levels off where adding more users doesn’t appreciably increase the surface area used. If I selected 1,000 random people around the world and looked at all their bugs, it would cover the vast majority of the bugs in the Ubuntu bug database.

In any case, Ubuntu is filled with bad bugs, so any theoretical analysis doesn’t matter. They might not be able to hit zero bugs, but they can make up many other good goals. I was suggesting zero bugs not also linked up to the upstream buglist. There are many interesting goals that Ubuntu could set over time.

If I could change one thing about the free software culture, it would be to push more for them to think about crashes the way airplanes designers do. When you have 100 million lines of code, you need to push for high quality or it will fall over constantly.

]]> Comment on Bug Growth is Proportional to User Growth, and Bugs are not Technical Debt. by Karl Fogel http://www.rants.org/2010/01/10/bugs-users-and-tech-debt/comment-page-1/#comment-85715 Karl Fogel Fri, 05 Feb 2010 18:16:24 +0000 http://www.rants.org/?p=355#comment-85715 @Keith I'm not saying people shouldn't fix bugs. Of course they should. But we need to understand that triage is the natural state of affairs. Driving a widely-used system's bug list to zero? Good luck with that :-). I don't think it's going to happen. You wrote: "The number of bugs is not correlated to the number of users because fixing bugs changes the number of bugs." They will always come in faster than you can fix them, because what causes them to come in is people encountering them. The more users you have, the more "surface area" the software is exposed to, so the more flaws will be reported. It's not necessarily that more flaws will be <em>found</em>, it's that more will be <em>reported</em>, because a growing user base increases the probability that at least one of the users who encounters a particular bug will report it -- because a larger number of users total are encountering that bug now. If Postfix decides not to keep a permanent, easily findable record of bug reports that they're not going to fix right away, that's fine, but then they're practicing the "lower the number of bug reports by discouraging filings" method. I don't know that that leads to better or worse software, but it certainly makes it harder for conscientious reporters to find duplicates. @Keith

I’m not saying people shouldn’t fix bugs. Of course they should. But we need to understand that triage is the natural state of affairs.

Driving a widely-used system’s bug list to zero? Good luck with that :-) . I don’t think it’s going to happen.

You wrote: “The number of bugs is not correlated to the number of users because fixing bugs changes the number of bugs.”

They will always come in faster than you can fix them, because what causes them to come in is people encountering them. The more users you have, the more “surface area” the software is exposed to, so the more flaws will be reported. It’s not necessarily that more flaws will be found, it’s that more will be reported, because a growing user base increases the probability that at least one of the users who encounters a particular bug will report it — because a larger number of users total are encountering that bug now.

If Postfix decides not to keep a permanent, easily findable record of bug reports that they’re not going to fix right away, that’s fine, but then they’re practicing the “lower the number of bug reports by discouraging filings” method. I don’t know that that leads to better or worse software, but it certainly makes it harder for conscientious reporters to find duplicates.

]]> Comment on “Sita Sings the Blues” at the Red Vic in San Francisco! by Crosbie Fitch http://www.rants.org/2010/02/04/sita-sings-the-blues-at-red-vic/comment-page-1/#comment-85711 Crosbie Fitch Fri, 05 Feb 2010 17:34:42 +0000 http://www.rants.org/?p=442#comment-85711 Jolly good. I'll read Nina's post. Ta. Jolly good. I’ll read Nina’s post. Ta.

]]> Comment on “Sita Sings the Blues” at the Red Vic in San Francisco! by Karl Fogel http://www.rants.org/2010/02/04/sita-sings-the-blues-at-red-vic/comment-page-1/#comment-85700 Karl Fogel Fri, 05 Feb 2010 16:30:50 +0000 http://www.rants.org/?p=442#comment-85700 Actually, no. "Sita Sings the Blues" has distributors -- they approach theaters in the usual way, and they share revenue with Nina Paley. But it's all done on an endorsement basis, instead of with monopoly rights. They're all non-exclusive distributors; they can't lock out anyone else from distributing the film, all they can do is do a better job of distributing. Nina has a great post about this: http://blog.ninapaley.com/2009/12/07/i-2/ See also http://sitasingstheblues.com/show.html (search for "distributors"). Actually, no. “Sita Sings the Blues” has distributors — they approach theaters in the usual way, and they share revenue with Nina Paley. But it’s all done on an endorsement basis, instead of with monopoly rights. They’re all non-exclusive distributors; they can’t lock out anyone else from distributing the film, all they can do is do a better job of distributing.

Nina has a great post about this: http://blog.ninapaley.com/2009/12/07/i-2/

See also http://sitasingstheblues.com/show.html (search for “distributors”).

]]> Comment on “Sita Sings the Blues” at the Red Vic in San Francisco! by Crosbie Fitch http://www.rants.org/2010/02/04/sita-sings-the-blues-at-red-vic/comment-page-1/#comment-85661 Crosbie Fitch Fri, 05 Feb 2010 09:10:31 +0000 http://www.rants.org/?p=442#comment-85661 I presume it was a feat of persuasion to get a cinema to show the film? I assume this has been achieved via a direct approach to the cinema rather than via some indie distribution channel? Will there be an article at some point documenting Nina Paley's trials and tribulations at getting her film to the big screen? I presume it was a feat of persuasion to get a cinema to show the film? I assume this has been achieved via a direct approach to the cinema rather than via some indie distribution channel?
Will there be an article at some point documenting Nina Paley’s trials and tribulations at getting her film to the big screen?

]]> Comment on Bug Growth is Proportional to User Growth, and Bugs are not Technical Debt. by Software Bugs: Good or Bad? « UNIX Administratosphere http://www.rants.org/2010/01/10/bugs-users-and-tech-debt/comment-page-1/#comment-85565 Software Bugs: Good or Bad? « UNIX Administratosphere Thu, 04 Feb 2010 10:02:37 +0000 http://www.rants.org/?p=355#comment-85565 [...] 4 February 2010 ddouthitt Leave a comment Go to comments Recently, Karl Fogel wrote about bugs and “technical debt” – as a response to a mailing list thread about the future of [...] [...] 4 February 2010 ddouthitt Leave a comment Go to comments Recently, Karl Fogel wrote about bugs and “technical debt” – as a response to a mailing list thread about the future of [...]

]]> Comment on Bug Growth is Proportional to User Growth, and Bugs are not Technical Debt. by KeithCu http://www.rants.org/2010/01/10/bugs-users-and-tech-debt/comment-page-1/#comment-85501 KeithCu Wed, 03 Feb 2010 21:10:03 +0000 http://www.rants.org/?p=355#comment-85501 BTW, you are thinking about the Postfix situation wrong. Postfix are basically saying that when a problem comes in, they either fix it immediately or decide they won't fix it. Launchpad might have a bug report, but it doesn't make it a part of their workflow. The point is that the launchpad bug report eventually turns into something like an email list discussion and they can keep track of things in there. It is only when you don't address all of your issues right when they come in that you need a bug tracker as opposed to just using email-type communication. BTW, I have found that Akismet does a great job dealing with spam and that captchas are unnecessary. BTW, you are thinking about the Postfix situation wrong. Postfix are basically saying that when a problem comes in, they either fix it immediately or decide they won’t fix it. Launchpad might have a bug report, but it doesn’t make it a part of their workflow. The point is that the launchpad bug report eventually turns into something like an email list discussion and they can keep track of things in there. It is only when you don’t address all of your issues right when they come in that you need a bug tracker as opposed to just using email-type communication.

BTW, I have found that Akismet does a great job dealing with spam and that captchas are unnecessary.

]]> Comment on Bug Growth is Proportional to User Growth, and Bugs are not Technical Debt. by KeithCu http://www.rants.org/2010/01/10/bugs-users-and-tech-debt/comment-page-1/#comment-85500 KeithCu Wed, 03 Feb 2010 21:04:26 +0000 http://www.rants.org/?p=355#comment-85500 The number of bugs is not correlated to the number of users because fixing bugs changes the number of bugs. I think if you look at other types of engineering: airplanes, buildings, etc. they might agree that there is no one perfect way to design something, but that if it did crash it would be a bad thing. If you look at many of Ubuntu's bugs in launchpad, at least 50% look bad. And lots of people are complaining about Ubuntu's bugginess. I believe working aggressively on the bug list can help improve the perception and the problem. And there is a problem about letting bugs linger. The fact that the iPod w/ iTunes doesn't work on Linux is a barrier that affects 200M people and is still broken 8 years out. As long as a community is churning through its bugs, then it is moving the codebase forward in all important directions. Now in Ubuntu's case, each bug needs to be verified, and then shepherded into the upstream codebase. Perhaps focusing on the number of unverified bugs should be Ubuntu's goal. Once you've handed it off to the proper upstream developer and answered his questions, then Ubuntu has completed an important job. It would be interesting to try to get that number to zero as a start. The number of bugs is not correlated to the number of users because fixing bugs changes the number of bugs.

I think if you look at other types of engineering: airplanes, buildings, etc. they might agree that there is no one perfect way to design something, but that if it did crash it would be a bad thing. If you look at many of Ubuntu’s bugs in launchpad, at least 50% look bad. And lots of people are complaining about Ubuntu’s bugginess. I believe working aggressively on the bug list can help improve the perception and the problem.

And there is a problem about letting bugs linger. The fact that the iPod w/ iTunes doesn’t work on Linux is a barrier that affects 200M people and is still broken 8 years out. As long as a community is churning through its bugs, then it is moving the codebase forward in all important directions. Now in Ubuntu’s case, each bug needs to be verified, and then shepherded into the upstream codebase. Perhaps focusing on the number of unverified bugs should be Ubuntu’s goal. Once you’ve handed it off to the proper upstream developer and answered his questions, then Ubuntu has completed an important job. It would be interesting to try to get that number to zero as a start.

]]> Comment on Bug Growth is Proportional to User Growth, and Bugs are not Technical Debt. by Fixing the Perception of Bugs | google android os blog http://www.rants.org/2010/01/10/bugs-users-and-tech-debt/comment-page-1/#comment-85482 Fixing the Perception of Bugs | google android os blog Wed, 03 Feb 2010 15:44:03 +0000 http://www.rants.org/?p=355#comment-85482 [...] bugs, and bug reports, are good. No really, at least that’s what Karl Fogel says in trying to squash the idea that bugs are "technical debt that developers must [...] [...] bugs, and bug reports, are good. No really, at least that’s what Karl Fogel says in trying to squash the idea that bugs are "technical debt that developers must [...]

]]> Comment on Bug Growth is Proportional to User Growth, and Bugs are not Technical Debt. by Karl Fogel http://www.rants.org/2010/01/10/bugs-users-and-tech-debt/comment-page-1/#comment-85227 Karl Fogel Sun, 31 Jan 2010 03:57:23 +0000 http://www.rants.org/?p=355#comment-85227 https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/postfix/+bug/501364 Recent; trivial patch (according to the submitter); not applied. Again, I don't know whether what the submitter says is accurate, or whether this is a bug at all. But it is being tracked in a bug tracker -- at Launchpad. So in a sense, there is no such thing as a project without a bug tracker anymore, hmm. The project may or may not have its own tracker, and the developers may or may not think they need it, but someone somewhere is tracking bugs anyway, and one of those places will probably become the default "list of record" in the absence of anything more compelling. https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/postfix/+bug/501364

Recent; trivial patch (according to the submitter); not applied. Again, I don’t know whether what the submitter says is accurate, or whether this is a bug at all. But it is being tracked in a bug tracker — at Launchpad.

So in a sense, there is no such thing as a project without a bug tracker anymore, hmm. The project may or may not have its own tracker, and the developers may or may not think they need it, but someone somewhere is tracking bugs anyway, and one of those places will probably become the default “list of record” in the absence of anything more compelling.

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